Yay! [John�s gift] was [delivered last night]! :) So, aside from wanting to buy Amy a couple of nail polishes (I got her a bunch of pedicure stuff, among other things), I am ALL DONE! WOO-HOO!!!

Actually, that's not entirely true. I have to go to the market and buy some stuff, then make little carrot loaves on Monday night. After that I am ALL DONE! WOO-HOO!!!

I had a nice time at Mom's last night. Sondra has to work Xmas Eve, but Mom invited Lou and it sounds like he may come, with Jeremy. Ergh...Also, Larry and I kind of got in to it over the war in Iraq a little. I would just like to say that I didn't start it. You would not believe the things coming out of your brother's mouth. He was actually basically defending the abuses going on in prisons over there! Unreal.

Anyway, aside from that, it was nice to see them. Sounds like they had a nice time on Kawaii. I didn't see Chris - Larry & Peg left to go pick him up at the airport at about 9-ish. Abby seemed well and is going off to college in Washington in the Spring. She's starting out with just one class, because she applied too late to take all of the assessment exams and stuff.

Have a nice weekend!

Love ya!

Regards,
Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 9:21 AM
To: Karen
Subject: Re: BMW

Well, I wouldn't even discuss politics with Larry. I am not good at putting up with what I consider foolish comments coming out of people's mouths. So, it is alot better for me and everyone else if I just don't enter discussions with those people at all. And......he is ex military, ya know? Arnett has a slightly different take on the abusers too. I think they did most of those things on their own. He does not. He thinks they were ordered to do those exact things and they are now the scapegoats for higher ups. Who knows. Disgusts the hell out of me. I have not been a fan of the average military person since Rick [her first husband, a Marine]. I don't really see any reason to change my opinion of most of them. Drives me crazy really. We talk about our great military all the time. Would that be these abusers or say someone like Timothy McVey? Ergh!

Oh, don't you just love McCain for blasting Rumsfeld?

So Sondra was ok? Don't worry, I really doubt Lou and Jeremy will come over. It is his Mom's birthday and I know he likes to stay with his family for that. Sondra is just probably trying to make him come over. Did she ask about June or me?

Hope YOU have a great weekend. Drive safely and have a good time. Say hi to John.

Love ya,
b

-----Original Message-----
From: Karen
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 9:46 AM
To: Barbara
Subject: Re: BMW

Well, I didn't intend to discuss politics with Larry. But he was pretty ridiculous. I can't believe we're related. Not to mention, I can't believe someone who is supposed to be so religious would be such an ass when it comes to human life and dignity. Aside from the prison abuse conversation*, he basically thinks we should just let them have their civil war and kill each other off, then go in and gather up whatever is left.

I totally agree with Arnett, by the way. I don't think they did those things on their own at all - especially since they have memos from advisors to Dubya which say that the Geneva Convention dictates should be ignored. That's one reason why there's so much hullabaloo over this Gonzales guy who wants to replace Ashcroft - he's the one who wrote one of those memos!

[and here I went in to a couple of paragraphs, explaining my position about the prison abuse, which I�ve already covered in these pages.]

And yes - I like John McCain more and more these days. He has some balls on him that one! I would have voted for him over like half of the Democrats who ran last year.

Did you hear that Howard Dean may be the next leader of the DNC? I don't know how I feel about that. I like him a lot and on the one hand would like him to be the leader, because he is a lot closer to what I think the party should be than most anybody in the running (and I HATE that Terry McCauliffe guy and am very glad he's out. He practically ruined our party, if you ask me). On the other hand, though, I want Dean to run for President again. I think he could win and if he doesn't run our hopes are on Hillary - who will not win. I love her, of course, but sadly a lot of people detest her. And I want someone who will win. She could do a lot more to help our country as a Senator. As a Presidential candidate, she would be a huge distraction.

Sondra was fine. They were all fine, actually (well, Jeremy stayed in the bedroom, watching tv the whole time). We talked a little bit about June - I told her I mailed June a care package, so keep that in mind if she mentions it [Barbara and I are actually going to see June on New Year�s Eve, at which time I will give her a care package I put together to try & keep her entertained since she�s basically unable to leave the house]. I told her we were going to Alaska next year. Other than that, I don't think we mentioned you. She told me the latest about [the band with the incredibly stupid name] � The Hunky Drummer is no longer in the band because he got in a fight with Robert, but he is still friends with Lou and they hang out every once in a while. They also got a new guy to basically replace Tony, and they play a lot more often because of that. I think Tony plays with them only when they play at that one bar out by his house.

Lou was saying his family is getting together on Xmas Eve at his sister's, but that he didn't want to go. But yeah - he probably won't come over without Sondra. Hopefully.

See ya later!

Regards,
Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 10:03 AM
To: Karen
Subject: Re: BMW

Mom just told me lou was there last night. I guess I didn't realize that. Did he speak to you?

Yes, I know the whole tone is set by high ups in the military. I just find it hard to believe that they actually ok'd those particular things to do to people. Intimidation can mean alot of different things, I guess. I just think those soldiers (male and female) enjoyed what they were doing to other human beings and that says a whole heck of a lot about their character. Like I said, disgusting.

Sondra didn't know we were going to Alaska?

I feel kinda like you, there are things I like about Dean but there are things that I don't think will be good. He was my first choice during the campaign. He just kinda messed up acting so unprofessionally. I still admire him.

b

-----Original Message-----
From: Karen
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 10:10 AM
To: Barbara
Subject: Re: BMW

Oh yeah, Lou was there. He was fine. We talked about some movies, but nothing really earth-shattering. I mean, I'm not gonna be rude, especially in my parents' house. I just won't go out of my way to speak to him, nor would I entertain the notion outside of family-events.

And I guess Sondra did not know about Alaska, no.

I think Dean learned his lesson from that, though. He's done a lot of interviews since his campaign ended and I like him more and more. If he runs again, I doubt very much we'd see that kind of "unprofessionalism" again (I like to make up my own words, apparently). However, he sticks to his guns and doesn't seem inclined to change any of his positions, just because they may not be as popular as others'. He won't back down on some crucial issues and I like that a lot. Of course, he doesn't have to compromise right now, so we'll see how that goes.



*What started the whole thing was, Larry said something very sarcastic along the lines of "Oh yeah, I feel so sorry for all of those terrorists being abused in prison." So of course I had to point out that, even if you think we have the right to treat terrorists that way (which we don't, of course), the VAST majority of those being held in Iraq are not terrorists - at least not when they were first put in prison - that they are being held without charge, basically for nothing more than being Iraqi. Then we let them go after a few months of being humiliated and held in prison. And if they weren't terrorists or "insurgents" before, don't you think they'd be more inclined to be so after being treated that way for no reason?

~~~

Word of the Day for Friday December 17, 2004

permeate PUR-mee-ayt, transitive verb:
1. To spread or diffuse through.
2. To pass through the pores or openings of.

intransitive verb:
To spread through or penetrate something.

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